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Please dicsuss if this is "Laming"
Forum » Kane's Wrath General Discussion » General Discussion
Joined: 9th Feb 2014
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Likes 9
16th Feb 2014

Plan Eden - T-59 : (-SAP-) Wilson BH

The facts.

Plan Eden : Used Prodigy to teleport hexa repeatedly (to live) . I did not teleport when emp'd and did not when phased.

Wilson : Catalist me 3 times. Tib veined me twice. 

I eventually won through defensive play with storm columns and devastator warships mixed with Tripods and Hexa.

He raged / said I was shit / I only won through laming / Im a noob blah blah.

What is anyone else's conclusion? 

Bearing in mind I fought of bike buggy / inf spam / and one clicks just to survive.


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Joined: 9th Feb 2014
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16th Feb 2014

When was this? o.O

IMO, the two of you have lamed in your own ways. So that should be fair and square.
The fact he can't stop your hexa laming with continual emp is his fault.

Bottom Line: The both of you did lame hard.


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Te te tete tetete TesTiNNNNN!!! ERROR#
My New RTS Blog for RTS updates: http://rtstratx.blogspot. ... sg/

Joined: 9th Feb 2014
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16th Feb 2014

But the point was he lost so many bikes / inf it was obvious that by the end of the third field he was going to lose, cos I had so much. The only reason I teleported it at all was because it would have taken longer for me to win ( would have lost more units defending infantry, etc, etc) . My point was that I did not use a bug and t-59 has enough weakenesses, especially against BH that it is simply not a valid point, especially when nods late game is so good.


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Joined: 10th Feb 2014
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16th Feb 2014

I think that these mechanics in themselves are not lame at all, nor are they necessarily overpowered. Honestly, I am having a hard time understanding why the community is so opposed to quite a lot of features in the game.

So as you may know, I've got a thread discussing the Hexapod Laming (teleing an emp'ed hexa), which discusses the subject in great detail. Aside from the emp teleporting of a hexa (which i do agree is detrimental to our experience when playing) I do not think that anything else is a problem; I think that as long as a mechanic has sufficient counter play, then it is up to the player to respond appropriately, and is not a problem with balance.

The things you mention in you're post I do not see as an exploit or cheap or anything of the sort; they are mechanics in a game you know well enough to expect, and in my opinion, it is your responsibility as a player to play in a way that gives you the highest chance of winning (which both of you are doing, by using the strengths of you're faction). What is also implied by this is that it is also you're responsibility to react to enemy threats appropriately.

Having said that, there are some things that could be done to address these concerns if they are truly community wide; for example in my hexa thread I have suggested increasing the cooldown for a lone commando to 5 minutes, and the cooldown for a commando garrisoned in the hexa to 2.5 minutes. If this solution were to have been in effect for you're match, the hexa tele thing would'nt have been an issue

As for the nod 1 clicks, I have not looked into them, nor have I played the game for some time, would you be so kind as to give me the info for Tiberium Vain and the Catalyst Missile:

Prerequisite Tech:
Cooldown:
Cost:

Once I have this information, I can ponder whether these things are an issue from a balance standpoint, or not as the case may be.


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Joined: 9th Feb 2014
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16th Feb 2014

Yeh exactly, I agree 100% with Life. It is stupid to moan about a factions strength. Neither t-59 nor BH have so many overwhelming strengtths it is stupidly hard to beat them. If, as BH, you let t-59 get T3/4 (depending on how you want to class the prodigy) then you will need to expect a hexapod that can move across the battlefield. Solutions = emp, sniping prod, etc.

Basically my point is everybody has an issue with t-59 teleport, but not things like all in BH flame / bike buggy which (in my opinion) will be used extensively when this £700 tournament comes up.


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Last Edit: 16th Feb 2014 by .'Plan.Eden'.
Joined: 16th Feb 2014
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16th Feb 2014

Sorry about your bad experience but sore losers always rage xD

To be honest i think that you both played fair, the teleport can be countered with emp or by sniping the prodigy/mastermind.


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Joined: 10th Feb 2014
Rank: Lead Referee
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16th Feb 2014

Sometimes when you play Traveler- 59, and lame, you might lose friends. no smiley face this time.



Average winter temps out in Alberta, Canada is -26C with wind chillz of -38C THAT'S COLD

Joined: 9th Feb 2014
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16th Feb 2014

nah not lame
Joined: 10th Feb 2014
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16th Feb 2014

Life, here is the info for the nod 1-clicks:
-all of them require the tier 4 tib chem plant

Tib Catalyst Missile:
$2000, 5 minute cooldown
instantly destroys any harvesters or refineries in its targeted radius, uninterceptable, you have around 2 seconds warning if you hear the sound

Tib Vapor bomb:
$3500, 5 minute cooldown, dropped by the armageddon bomber (same one that drops mines)
It looks like a fuel air bomb, and it does lots of grenade type damage, so its good against structures and infantry. The bomber can be shot down, so this is the least powerful, I'd say, even though it can shred your power and tech structures

Tib Vein Detonation:
$4000, 5 min cooldown (I think), uninterceptable, can only be used when the area of effect overlaps a tib field
It basically does massive damage to everything in the AoE, over time, but even if you move away it will still do damage to you. It does more damage if something is tib based or contains tiberium, so it can destroy a full harv but not an empty one, It also can destroy an entire army of tanks that wandered too close to a tib field. This one is amazingly annoying because they can spend 4000 and instakill your 10+ thousand tank army and you cant do anything about it.
Joined: 10th Feb 2014
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17th Feb 2014

QuoteLife, here is the info for the nod 1-clicks:
-all of them require the tier 4 tib chem plant

Tib Catalyst Missile:
$2000, 5 minute cooldown
instantly destroys any harvesters or refineries in its targeted radius, uninterceptable, you have around 2 seconds warning if you hear the sound

Tib Vapor bomb:
$3500, 5 minute cooldown, dropped by the armageddon bomber (same one that drops mines)
It looks like a fuel air bomb, and it does lots of grenade type damage, so its good against structures and infantry. The bomber can be shot down, so this is the least powerful, I'd say, even though it can shred your power and tech structures

Tib Vein Detonation:
$4000, 5 min cooldown (I think), uninterceptable, can only be used when the area of effect overlaps a tib field
It basically does massive damage to everything in the AoE, over time, but even if you move away it will still do damage to you. It does more damage if something is tib based or contains tiberium, so it can destroy a full harv but not an empty one, It also can destroy an entire army of tanks that wandered too close to a tib field. This one is amazingly annoying because they can spend 4000 and instakill your 10+ thousand tank army and you cant do anything about it.

...

Right well, I'm pretty tired at the moment, so this is going to be short and sweet, rather than the usual huge explanatory posts I tend to do; I'll elaborate on my opinion if anyone wants me to.



So essentially, these powers seem fairly balanced; I mean in order for nod to be able to even cast abilities, they need to invest in their full tech tree (op centre, tech lab, chem plant); then they have to spend yet more money to actually even cast them: I mean they basically do small to medium economic damage (based on timing of abilities and layout of your base) but if you take some fairly simple precautions then you can easily minimise damage (spread out refineries, don't move your army over tiberium fields, have anti air or just snipe their tech buildings which are not exactly cheap and have low hp). These abilities also have a fairly decent cooldown timer, unlike the masterminds teleport.

So yes, in comparison to a teleport that's free, with only a 1 minute cooldown, and can be used from anywhere on the map, these are far more balanced. Think of the Scrin wormhole right? It is essentially the same as the masterminds teleport expect it costs money and has a lot longer cooldown; stands to reason that the masterminds ability should be modified somewhat: nod 1 clicks tho? I think not.

what do you think?


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Last Edit: 17th Feb 2014 by LifeMeans[Death]
Joined: 9th Feb 2014
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17th Feb 2014

I think considering the Prodigy is so weak it is fine. Granted it can be helped by 5+ corrupters and a war factory to keep it alive, but considering about $10, 000 is then being tied up you and not really doing anything this is also fine... lol.


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Last Edit: 17th Feb 2014 by .'Plan.Eden'.
Joined: 10th Feb 2014
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17th Feb 2014

Life, the problem with the one clicks is that the economic damage isn't very minor, its not always possible to avoid tib fields, its impossible to intercept the two most powerful, and a nod player can get to them pretty quickly.

Catalyst: A single catalyst missile can be used to effectively destroy your economy, if its used at the right time. When you've just expanded, your refineries are usually pretty close (close enough), and even if they are not, the nod player can usually catch several harvesters too. Thats anywhere from $5000-$9000 damage right away, not including that you have to stop unit production and building production to get your economy back to normal, all for a $2000 support power, that you can't block. I was clearly winning a game today (Our tank armies had just killed eachother, but i had another mixed army and a marv most of the way done, while my opponent had not much else left), when he oneclicked me and I lost both refineries at my expand, which stopped me completely, because I had to send them all the way north to my main to refine. My opponent expanded to the middle and used it to build two big armies while I couldnt contest it because i had no money. I know this is an extreme example, but almost all uses of the catalyst are way more than cost effective because of how much it slows you down, not just the straightforward damage.

Tib vein: This, at least in my experience, is mostly used against an army of vehicles that happens to be passing through a tib field. It can obliterate an entire mass of bike buggy or pitbulls, but that's easy to avoid. However, when maneuvering a tank army, it's almost impossible to avoid going near any tiberium fields, and if you do, they can obliterate your entire army.

Overall, you are correct about the cost and recharge time. However, the problem isnt that people are spamming these, its that even when used once, they can wipe out your entire economy or your entire army. Finally, there's no real skill involved, hence the name. With one click, they can do enormous damage, and you can't prevent it.
Joined: 9th Feb 2014
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17th Feb 2014

Nod's 1 clicks* can't be prevented. The only way to stop them is to disallow scouting. Even so, nod will always have a way to get a scout off.
It is harder for black hand to scout, because of the lack of air and stealth. The only way they would use their one clicks is via camping and waiting for the enemy to come to death's door; or by using the decoy or sending in raider buggies sneakily.
Nod and MoK have less issues with decoy harvesters and venoms.
So if you want to analyze the damage, it is a one-off event that much destroys whatever you have (or severely damages it). Nod players usually then take this opportunity to eradicate their opponents because they would be so weak by then (unless their opponent camps with mass obelisks/storms/sonics that is impenetrable)

Scrin players** can Hexa-Lame as what it is called every 20seconds after they retreat. This is considering the fact that you have a mass of corrupters back at your base. The mastermind/prodigy is hard to snipe 'cause it would be heavily protected by mass anti-air or anti-infantry, and the healing rate is ridiculous. This is more of a hit-and-run tactic.

So if you consider the damage done by Nod's one clicks and Scrin's hexa-tele,
Deduction:
1. Damage done overall is always greater with 1 clicks in a one-off event.
2. Scrin's hexa-tele will do much more damage over time as compared to nod's one-clicks.
3. 1 clicks are not counterable* but they do not always destroy your eco/army completely
( Spread your refinaries. Listen for the catalyst strike. That's how you try to counter a catalyst. )
( Tib Vein is more devastating though, no opinions about that )
4. Scrin's hexa-tele pwnz juggernaults/behemoths and mammoths/titans. And of course they pwnz stacked-up air. However if you hear an epic unit, you should always try to get out emp first. Once I owned hexa after hexa with just a handful of infantry (rockets+rifles+greds).

Footnote:
* Applies only to Tib Catalyst and Tib Vein
** Applies only to Scrin and Traveller


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Te te tete tetete TesTiNNNNN!!! ERROR#
My New RTS Blog for RTS updates: http://rtstratx.blogspot. ... sg/

Joined: 9th Feb 2014
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Likes 16
18th Feb 2014

how can u guys still b talking about this,hexa tele is not laming vs bh,...
they can easily use rage gen on hea and emp it and kill it...
why is still discusion still goin
Joined: 12th Feb 2014
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Likes 6
21st Feb 2014

hexalaming and 1 clicks arnt going to go away. no one wants to commit to the changes necessary to fix the. in order to truly fix them there would need to be some balancing changes and no one wants to do that.
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