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The Scrin Hexapod: How to solve the problem
Forum » Kane's Wrath General Discussion » General Discussion
Joined: 10th Feb 2014
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11th Feb 2014

A Little about Me
 
Hello fellow Kane's Wrath enthusiasts, I am an avid KW fan who used to play it on the Xbox 360 (about 6 or so years ago). I have recently rekindled my love for KW thanks to finding Bikes stream which lead to Green_Zero's YT and a bunch of others as well. The only reason I stopped playing KW was because it got to the stage that hardly anyone was playing it on the Xbox, and I was waiting for 2 hours to play one short game, so I gave up on it, despite it being my favourite RTS game. I have tried SC2 and a bunch of other but I still love the CnC Tiberium series most of all (we will pretend that CnC 4 doesn't exist though ok?) and now i find out there are quite a few people still playing and even holding tournaments for it, DAT KW HYPE SUN!
 
Hold your breath and dive in, because this is a long (and I mean looooong) ass post. However I feel that an issue of this magnitude is deserving of such: for those of you who don't want to read it all there is a TL;DR at the bottom out of courtesy.
 
The Problem
 
"Hexa Laming" is the most frustrating mechanic in KW, to date: it allows a Scrin/T 59 player to:
 
  • Gain experience on their epic unit... with little risk involved.
  • Generate income from the units they kill... with little risk involved.
  • Crush enemy units/ Deplete enemy resources... with little risk involved!!!!
 
This results in a Play style which is competitively superior to almost anything else a Scrin/T 59 player can do; I mean, why wouldn't you take free money? Why wouldn't you take free experience? It's in the game so why not do it? ESPECIALLY if there is money on the line, you do anything to win right?
 
The fact of the matter is this, everyone can get experience for their epic unit, everyone can kill enemy units and deplete enemy resources, that’s the whole point of an RTS, to win, right? The problem is, in case you didn't notice by now, is that with a Hexa and 2 commandos, there is Little. Risk. Involved.
 
This makes for a very repetitive and stale game play cycle where the Scrin player:
 
Tele In > Get Free Shit > Tele Out > Repeat
 
While their Opponent:
 
Gets Raped > Gets Salty > Rage Quits > Sadness
 
Not exactly the definition of "Fun": So just fix it, right? Wrong.
 
The Problem with the problem
 
As I understand it, the reason that the so called "Hexa Laming" Exploit cannot be fixed is because it results in a game crash when the 'fix' is applied. Now, I do not know what language Kane's Wrath was developed in, and I am likely not familiar with it, but when you boil it down, programming is simply logic: Logic which a computer can read, create rules from, and act upon as the developer wishes.
 
With regards to Video Games, Programming creates the rules which define the Game's environment: for example, A Hammerhead can move over directly over a Cliff, yet a Predator Tank cannot, why is this? Well simple it’s because Tank's can’t fly right? Duh...
 
Well yes, we can logically deduce that: but the computer only knows what you tell it, Indeed it doesn't 'know' what a Tank or a Helicopter is, it just knows that it has objects, and these objects have different properties which define their behaviour: In the example given there are 2 'objects': 1 object can move 'through' difficult terrain, and one cannot. When we combines rules like this with countless others, we create the behaviour we come to expect from a "Tank" or a "Plane"... right? 
 
Expressing the Problem with Logic
 
so the issue that we are most concerned with is, when stated logically, something like this:
 
                                        "Units which are EMP'ed cannot be teleported"
 
If you could not teleport an EMP’ed Hexapod, that would fix the problem, right:
 
Tele In > EMP that Bitch > Kill that Bitch > Extreme Happiness
 
Indeed this would fix the problem and make the community happy; however, it is not a logically sound statement. The game engine 'knows' that:
 
                                        "Units which are EMP’ed cannot teleport"
 
Indeed, when you EMP a Hexapod, the Prodigy/Mastermind garrisoned inside it cannot Teleport it. However, a Prodigy/Mastermind which is not inside the Hexapod can indeed Teleport ANYTHING, including the Hexapod, because it is not EMP'ed (and cannot be affected by it)
 
Alas, we are starting to see that the issue is a little more complicated that it appears. So what now? well it is up to us to find a way around this Logic barrier the engine is presenting us with, that is the main aspect of programming: problem solving: getting the same effect in multiple ways. So how do we do it?
  (...Cont.)


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Last Edit: 11th Feb 2014 by LifeMeans[Death]
Joined: 10th Feb 2014
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11th Feb 2014

Solving the Problem with Logic

The easiest thing that we can do is to come up with a new Logic Statement that is logically sound; so instead of "Units which are EMP'ed cannot be teleported" we can say

                            "Players will not have the ability to teleport EMP'ed units"

A subtle difference, but again, this is how you have to operate when you're programming; and since the above logic achieves the same end/result, we're golden. Okay so now how do we apply this logic to the Game World of Kane's Wrath: well the simplest solution would be to just remove the Prodigy/Mastermind completely from the game... but that's quite drastic I think, lets scale it in a bit. Okay; so instead of completely removing the commando, the next obvious thing to do would be to modify its abilities right? We could:

1. Remove the Teleport ability completely from the Prodigy/Mastermind

So this is a possibility, we could do some other things in conjunction with this to make it so that game play isn't too badly affected. For example we would need to likely give the Prodigy/Mastermind a new ability in place of Teleport; in addition we could even give the Hexapod the teleport ability on its own so that it can still do its short distance teleporting, either to attack or retreat, but not both. We're getting closer, but this still feels like a little too extreme of a change. Let’s see what else we can think of.

2. Decrease the range from which the Prodigy/Mastermind can teleport from

Okay so the reasoning behind this change would be that if you were harassing with your Hexapod as most Scrin players choose to do, decreasing the range would mean that the Prodigy/Mastermind would need to be closer to the harassment location which means closer to the enemies units which means higher chance of being able to pick it off with anti-infantry etc. That's all very well and good but I'm not actually sure that really solves anything, because as the game stands now players have that ability, and its still proving to be too much too handle: so the only real way to solve the problem with this method is to make the range the same as the garrison tele range which is really short (like within vision range). So we are once again back to the "that's a little extreme" section. Can we come up with anything else?

3. Increase the cooldown of the Teleport ability

Immediately I like this prospect the most, because it’s the least intrusive change in terms of game play; there’s no removing this, adding that, giving this to this; all we're doing is making it so you can't use something as often. Furthermore, it’s really simple, both theoretically AND technically speaking: it just requires the changing of one variable, players can easily adjust since there’s no huge meta changes, and it achieves an end which would see Hexapod & Commando Teleporting change from a frowned upon, rinse and repeat exploit, to a tactically heavy decision for a Scrin player to make. If we look back to our gameplay cycle above:

Tele In > Get Free Shit > Tele Out > Repeat

it would now be:

Tele In > Get Free Shit > Tele Out > Wait for Cooldowns > Repeat

So now that we have nailed down the solution, it only remains to say how long would the cooldown be increased to? well I think around 5 minutes would be a good starting point. That would mean that the Scrin would have to co-ordinate their assault with the teleport so they could throw everything at their enemy at once, but if it goes sour, they can still tele their Hexapod out and keep it a little longer. It would also give the enemy ample time to counter attack during the tele cooldown; and would create this "action reaction game play" with opportunities for both players to capitalise on. BUUUUUUUT it’s not up to me, what do you guys think; would increasing the teleport cooldown work? How long should it be? Is there a better solution to this problem? Feel free to throw in you're 2 cents haha!

Thanks for Reading this rather monumental post

Too Long; Didn't Read !!!!

Essentially, I took people through the mind set of someone who programs and has to solve a lot of problems, and came up with some interesting and possible solutions. Ultimately though, we found that Increasing the cooldown of the Teleport ability would be the best all round solution.

It would mean that the Scrin would have to co-ordinate their assault with the teleport so they could throw everything at their enemy at once, but if it goes sour, they can still tele their Hexapod out and keep it a little longer. It would also give the enemy ample time to counter attack during the tele cooldown; and would create this "action reaction game play" with opportunities for both players to capitalise on. BUUUUUUUT its not upto me, what do you guys think; would increasing the teleport cooldown work? How long should it be? Is there a better solution to this problem? Feel free to throw in you're 2 cents haha!

Thanks for Reading this condensed version of this rather monumental post


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Last Edit: 11th Feb 2014 by LifeMeans[Death]
Joined: 10th Feb 2014
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11th Feb 2014

I like the read.



Average winter temps out in Alberta, Canada is -26C with wind chillz of -38C THAT'S COLD

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11th Feb 2014

nice read thanks for posting and thanks for taking your time with this ill be sure to show green_zero .
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12th Feb 2014

I don't know how the game is implemented, but would it be possible to give each unit an isEmped Boolean and have the teleport function query that before teleporting? Failing that, we could have the selector for the teleport function, which determines what units to bring, skip over the Emped or phased ones. I apologize if I'm suggesting things that have already been tried.

Another problem with the hex is the shock trooper garrison. The most powerful antitank garrison is also the best/only antiaircraft garrison and is good against infantry too. For the other epics, the garrisons are more specialized. I don't know if that's too big to change, but it's something to consider.
Joined: 10th Feb 2014
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12th Feb 2014

QuoteI don't know how the game is implemented, but would it be possible to give each unit an isEmped Boolean and have the teleport function query that before teleporting? Failing that, we could have the selector for the teleport function, which determines what units to bring, skip over the Emped or phased ones. I apologize if I'm suggesting things that have already been tried.
<br>
<br>Another problem with the hex is the shock trooper garrison. The most powerful antitank garrison is also the best/only antiaircraft garrison and is good against infantry too. For the other epics, the garrisons are more specialized. I don't know if that's too big to change, but it's something to consider.

Firstly I would like to say thanks for the overall positive reception of this post.

@Quark036

I had a similar train of thought when first thinking about the problem and how it could be solved, however there are a few reasons why i did no include this in the post.

Firstly, I figured that if someone is going to maintain a game voluntarily, they are probably atleast somewhat competent at this sort of stuff, i.e. programming, problem solving and other associated skills right? So i figured that since I had thought of this after only a few minutes, and given that this has been quite a big issue within the community for some time now, cgf's probably spent more time trying to crack this one than me: ergo, its likely safe to assume that his thoughts had lead him down a similar path, to no avail.

Secondly, I realised, almost as soon as I thought of it, that the solution is not really adequate (This is mostly covered in the logic section of the original post): again without knowing the way the games coded its not possible to pinpoint exactly why its crashing, but simply put its because the teleport function is resulting in behaviour which the game is not expecting, and if that happens, the game doesnt know what to do. For everything that can happen in the game world. the computer needs to know what to do next: if it doesnt, thats a crash. Take the life of an average scorpion tank for example:

its built > move to waypoint > idle > move command given > idle > attack move order > reverse move order > attack > unit dies... This is a pretty typical example in gameplay. If any of these steps were not defined in code in full, thats a problem. 

With respect to the issue in question, the game engine 'expects' that when you use the teleport ability on a unit, that unit will be teleported to the location you have stated. The only way it will expect/allow a different result is if you have code which tells the engine "This result is okay; and this is what to do next". So you would have to implement coding which states that if a unit is EMPed it cannot be teleported. This could be achieved by something as simple as:

If (isEMPED == true){
       DontTeleport();
}

If(isEMPED == false){
       Teleport();
}

The main issue with this is that I have no idea how technically competent cgf is; I also dont know how organised the code for KW is, it could be an absolute mess in there, which would complicate the whole problem exponentially. This is why the primary post concluded in the suggestion of simply increasing the cooldown of the ability: its simple. its easy to implement in time for the tournament, and its not going to change gameplay that much. Plus, it solves the problem without the need for all the effort of fiddling with the code and writing it manually, all that needs done is changing a single variable.

Thanks for replying


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12th Feb 2014

Its is not that easy to solve the problem. The Code of KW ist quite unorganized, because it is compiled. You cant just at in 2 If Statesments and think it will work

All the functions going on in a game a totally spread out. You need to be one of the original game developers to have a chance to find and fix this bug in the project.


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Joined: 10th Feb 2014
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12th Feb 2014

I see your point, and I think that is definitely valid for my first solution. It would require code all over to add a boolean to everything, then be able to check it before teleporting. However, I think the second solution could still work. If you could find the teleport function, or, more specifically, the selector for what it would bring, I think you could adjust that to fix the problem. All it would require would be to check if there is any EMP acting in the selector area, and then if there is, teleport nothing. The game won't freak out at this. ALready, in game, it is possible to teleport nothing from here to there. If you misclick with the selector, the function still works and you teleport nothing. 

Thanks for your responses, and I think CGF has done a great job so far. Maybe he could comment on this thread and tell us what he's tried and what happened, so we could suggest new directions.
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12th Feb 2014

QuoteIts is not that easy to solve the problem. The Code of KW ist quite unorganized, because it is compiled. You cant just at in 2 If Statesments and think it will work
<br>
<br>All the functions going on in a game a totally spread out. You need to be one of the original game developers to have a chance to find and fix this bug in the project.

...
In all honesty i think you have illustrated my point rather perfectly there. The code i presented does nothing on its own, you would need to manually make the isEMPED boolean, the DontTeleport/Teleport functions as well as most likely having to code you're way around a lot of other things in the engine which you'd have to take care to not interfere with (thats assuming that the game is even coded in C#, it could be java or python or whatever). and then EVEN assuming you manage that remarkable feat, you will still need to find where to put it, do you have to make another method for that or can you integrate it into an existing one? and there will inevitably be complier errors, if your making that amount of sweeping changes to the code over such a large project, it will inevitably rock the boat a bit (possibly a lot), then you have to code round those issues; blah blah blah... the list of problems just goes on and on and on.

That is why my original post said, lets just increase the cooldown for the teleport. Its just 1 variable, and changing thast variable will NOT affect the workings of the rest of the code, because it is initialised as whatever you tell it to be initialised as, whether its 1 second or 900. My solution was maximum effect for mimumum effort, having already considered the issues with going into a foreign project thats so large.


Lastly, I am not convinced that this is a bug at all (see logic portion of original post) as the engine is working as one would expect within its given parameters: I think that the fact that the Hexa cant tele itself whilst EMPed is correct behaviour, and the fact that the lone commando can tele units (EMPed or not) is also correct behaviour. This is because, logically speaking, a unit being powered down does not make it a building right? If its a unit, and its in the circle, you can teleport it. Think of an MCV:

you unpack it; its a building, can't be teleported, but it can be sold, repaired, powered down, right?

Pack it up again; now it can't be sold, repaired, powered down, but you CAN teleport it. because it is now defined as a unit in the engine, not a building.

In order to get the desired effect with this logic, you would have to change the Hexapod from a 'unit' to a 'building' when its EMPed (cos u cant tele buildings), then back again once the emp wares off. This is an example of a solution which is theoretically quite simple, but technically impossible for a non developer to achieve; and you'd still have to worry about countless other issues that could be potentially created from such a change, like accidently selling your hexa when its emped: you could repair it now so thats a new exploit...ZOMG i just powered down my epic mid battle RAGEMONSTERENGAGED blah blah; you see what im saying?

To summarise, I do not think this behaviour is a bug, I think its working as intended. However, I also think that the extremely low cooldown of these teleport abilities makes them frustrating and horrible to play against, because they create abusive, risk free gameplay for one player, and boring, frustrating, NOT FUN gameplay for their opponent. Anything which affects the game so much in a negative way should be modified, so that the game is more fun.

QuoteI see your point, and I think that is definitely valid for my first solution. It would require code all over to add a boolean to everything, then be able to check it before teleporting. However, I think the second solution could still work. If you could find the teleport function, or, more specifically, the selector for what it would bring, I think you could adjust that to fix the problem. All it would require would be to check if there is any EMP acting in the selector area, and then if there is, teleport nothing. The game won't freak out at this. ALready, in game, it is possible to teleport nothing from here to there. If you misclick with the selector, the function still works and you teleport nothing. 
<br>
<br>Thanks for your responses, and I think CGF has done a great job so far. Maybe he could comment on this thread and tell us what he's tried and what happened, so we could suggest new directions.

...
I didn't really cover this solution because its just the same problem to a lesser degree right? You'd still have to find and modify multiple bits of code in several different portions of the game. You'd still run into compiling issues, and all the rest of it. Another example of simple in theory; in practice? not so much.

Also, why would you're solution be better for gameplay than simply lowering the cooldown? In my opinion, lowering the cooldown is proactively making the game more fun for everyone, not just less frustrating for everyone who isnt scrin; we are saying right well as scrin you can still have the same mobility with your epic (as thats the strength of the unit) but you'll need to be much more selective with when and how you use it, or youll end up in trouble: thats giving the player a cool decision to make and making the game more fun for BOTH players; because automatically if the scrin now uses the teleport mechanic effectively, its that much more rewarding for them (which is the entire point of playing); as well as the fact that you're opponents not relentlessly getting his face smashed in by the invisible man anymore right?

In short, what you're proposing is more effort to do, if its even possible; and its just gonna make the game less bad, not necessarily more fun.


Thanks for all you're replies keep em coming, if we get enough maybe cgf will hit us up with dat "I tried all this shit retards" and itll all be for nothing hahaa XD. No seriously though cheers for getting involved guys, I apologise if I sound douchey in my responses, I'm not intentionally trying to rub anyone the wrong way; im just trying to explain myserlf as clearly as possible, and make KW a better game in the process: I truly believe that making the cooldown lower would tick all the right boxes, and make the game more fun and rewarding for everyone (even the scrin players). 

Being a game designer myself, I know that sometimes when youve been bashing your head against the same problem for so long you get stuck in a thought pattern or a way of approching it; I primarily made this thread to give cgf a new perspective to the problem and hopefully bring to light some things he hasn't considered; getting the rest of the community involed is an added bonus


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Last Edit: 12th Feb 2014 by Green_ZERO
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12th Feb 2014

I see your point, and I hadn't really considered it as being a feature rather than a bug. Given the limitations we have, your solution seems like the best. There will probably be some debate over the exact cool down though. You also have to consider that the teleport isn't just used for the epic, it's also useful for smaller units or moving engineers
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13th Feb 2014

QuoteI see your point, and I hadn't really considered it as being a feature rather than a bug. Given the limitations we have, your solution seems like the best. There will probably be some debate over the exact cool down though. You also have to consider that the teleport isn't just used for the epic, it's also useful for smaller units or moving engineers

...
Well I know it is possible to use the teleport ability on any unit but I think that the only reason players do it is because there is no downside. Teleporting the epic is far and beyond the primary use for this ability, and i think players would think alot more carefully about its use if they could only do it once every 5 minutes. Its like Shockwave Artillery for GDI right? if that was free and had a cooldown of like 1 minute, everyone would just spam that on enemy units every chance they got; because there is no downside to doing so, no penalty for that choice. As it stands now though, GDI typically save that ability for when they are engaging the enemy epic, or a major army, in an attempt to gain the tactical edge...

So yeah, I think that the cooldown change can only be a good thing for this game and all of its players. Also, i'd like to point out that I suggested 5 minutes just as a starting point; seems to me that 4 - 5 minutes is around the right mark: any shorter and i think that there is not enough time for the opposing team to capitalise on the downtime between teleports, because lets not forget that these attacks can be utterly devastating. Any longer though, and it would be entering rediculous territory, considering the average length of a game etc.

to expand on my previous suggestion though, I would like to propose the idea of two seperate cooldown timers. I'm going to stick with 5 minutes for the lone commando's teleport for the reasons above. However, for a commando garissoned in the hexapod, the cooldown doesnt need to be that long; because it can only teleport a relatively short distance. I still think its currently far too short, and would suggest maybe a 2.5 - 3 minute cooldown for that, allowing the scrin player to remain somewhat active with their hexa harassing when the big tele is down, using it to either engage (e.g. crush units w/ phase) or tactically retreat in a time of need.

The main reason for this is that I feel like if they were both 5 minutes long, you would just have a stale situation where the scrin would turtle up, and then once every 5 minutes they would go in with the mini tele, and out with the big one, then wait, the go in; etc etc; so yeah if the mini ones a little shorter it gives the scrin a little more options with the hexapod. However these values are very much up for discussion (which is why i asked for people to give their own thoughts on the matter) and ultimately its not up to me; again, I just wanna help make a better game for all of us 

thanks again for you're input though man, discussion on these issues is always constructive. You sir are a total boss 


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13th Feb 2014

QuoteI don't know how the game is implemented, but would it be possible to give each unit an isEmped Boolean and have the teleport function query that before teleporting? Failing that, we could have the selector for the teleport function, which determines what units to bring, skip over the Emped or phased ones. I apologize if I'm suggesting things that have already been tried.
Honestly, this sounds like a rather easy fix. Give me the source code and I'll do it for ya, lol

BTW, @ OP, do you have a background in coding?
Last Edit: 13th Feb 2014 by Noshuru
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13th Feb 2014

QuoteHonestly, this sounds like a rather easy fix. Give me the source code and I'll do it for ya, lol<br><br>BTW, @ OP, do you have a background in coding?

...
Not as such. I have just finished a 4 year Honours Degree in Computer Game Development: within which there were 2 strands; Design & Programming. I chose the design strand because I want to design games for a living. However, designers are required to do more and more these days; like 10 years ago they would just come up with game mechanics, make the level geometry or w/e it was; but now designers are required to be able to essentially produce their portion of the game from concept to completion: build the environment/level, script the events within the level, make place-holder art until the pros have a pass at it, possibly even model some of the assets; In fact, the guys over at Uber Entertainment who make Planetary Annihilation dont employ designers unless they can also program at a high level, so you've gotta really excel at every aspect of game development in order to secure a job: So in our course, although it was primarily focused on design, we had to do a lot of programming and art etc. to make our games.

I finished it last May, and since then have been making my own games which, especially in the preliminary stages of development, involves a lot more programming than anything else right; I mean you've gotta build the tech and make things function on a reasonable level before you bother making things look nice.

So while I was pretty garbage at programming in uni, since the end of my course I have really excelled a lot quicker than I would have imagined, and have come to realise that, as I said in my post, its just a lot of logic and problem solving; and its really fun and rewarding when you code something from scratch and it works exactly how you want it to.



As for this being an 'easy' fix, its rather hard to ascertain that when you don't know anything about the project setting? Like what language its coded in, how 'readable' the code is (are there comments, meaningful variable names etc.) I mean yeah one can assume the guys who made it are pros, but without seeing it its hard to make that conclusion. Other things that can be an issue are the size of the project; the more code their is the more chance you have of creating errors etc. Also, as previously stated, I don't know how technically proficient you or cgf are, but id imagine he knows what he's doing since he's managed to integrate a lot of changes into the game which have improved it significantly: so I personally think that he deserves a little more credit than that. He has tried, and as of yet he couldn't figure it out; most of the time when that happens you just need a different pair of eyes looking at the same problem from a different perspective; that's one of the most important skills as a programmer in my opinion, to be that person for yourself; but its tough man and you can't always do it. That's why I made this post.

Lastly, please read the entire thread if you haven't already because I go into a lot more detail in previous posts, but basically I believe that simply modifying the cooldown of the ability will not only render the exploit redundant; but it will make the game more fun for everyone, and make the commando a much more focused, end game mechanic than it currently is: and best of all, it will do it without the need for writing or modifying the code in any way.

Thanks for the post broseph!



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Last Edit: 13th Feb 2014 by LifeMeans[Death]
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24th Feb 2014

The idea of an epic unit teleporting is retarded in general. Out of all Epic Units the Hexapod is nothing but cheese and its unlikable.

Even the hexapod secondary ability of how it makes money is lazy.

They should have done something cool like the hexpod can grow blue tiberium fields on old ones if left idle.
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24th Feb 2014

Man, your offended by the scrin epic unit, you know its not as bad as you thing, there are ways of destroying it.



Average winter temps out in Alberta, Canada is -26C with wind chillz of -38C THAT'S COLD

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2nd Jun 2014

I have to agree as well. The Hex is not so OP. I've killed them with infantry. As far as "lazy" goes, a MARV can easily rack in the bucks MARVesting. Filled with Zone Raiders, ITS WAY OP. A Redeemer coming into your camp as your building up units for a major push and rages your camp, you lose half your units and you still have an Epic unit to deal with. I've seen Pro's kill fully ranked Hex's, fully ranked Redeemers but NEVER a fully ranked quad Zone Raider MARV. Most can't really micro the Hex like say Masterleaf, BikeRushOwnZ or Plan.Eden. Make Hex, drop shocks and mastermind/prodogy in, make another commando unit, drop 10 corrupters on the Hex's tail and go out and blink in and out of your camp all the while micro'ing corrupters so they don't get killed. These gentlemen are Pro's at it. Masterleaf blinking into every advantage point to kill enemy units all the while keeping out of kill range. Plan.Eden faking someone out with a mid level unit rush and blinking smack dab into your camp wrecking havoc before you even know the Hex is in the fight. Or my favorite, someone making enough Juggernaughts to wreck 5 camps much less one and a cocky little champion teleporting his Hex right into the right side of them and just crushing them like dominos and winning the game. Is this laming? I think not. Even the emp'ed teleport is not laming in a true sense. It's only laming because the community says its a no-no.  imo


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Peace through power!

Last Edit: 2nd Jun 2014 by DarkWarrior
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5th Jun 2014

I have to disagree with you. I agree that the hexa is not op in and of itself, but if you killed it with infantry (which I have done) it was because the owner wasn't hexalaming.

Your points about marvesting and rage are fair, but teleporting is in a different league altogether. Teleporting allows for lazy play. With the other epics, you have to use them correctly, and there are counters. You can have scouts with stealth detection for the redeemer, and the marv is pretty easy to spot. The hexa is too, but the hexalamer doesnt have to worry. There is never any real danger to the hex, besides emp. Everything else they can just teleport away. The problem isn't how powerful that that power is, because rage and marvest are powerful too. The problem is that it creates really lazy gameplay, and there is nothing the other person can do about it. It doesn't require any real strategy (walk towards their base, if you see any emp or you get into the orange, teleport away-never any danger) and its not fun to play.

Joined: 9th Feb 2014
Rank: --
Likes 1
26th Jun 2014

Ithink a solution could be made way more simple. Simply make the Mastermind/Prodigy unable to teleport epic units. The hexa has its own way of teleporting with a short range and I think it's fine, a player will need to invest a commando permanently to get the ability and they will lose if they lose the hexa.

Teleporting is a fun mechanic if it's not spammable. Right now it is, but if you do the above you take thet away. Also, the emp argument is hardly valid, since different factions have differend emp sources. It's no problem hitting the emp as mok, but with steel talons, as soon as your opponent will hear the support power beinhg used, he will teleport and then just teleport back in while it's on cooldown (Ithink they should get emp grenades as an upgrade on the tech center).
Joined: 9th Feb 2014
Rank: World Champion 2014
Likes 10
26th Jun 2014

Scrin suffer a huge weakness to EMP grenadiers, there's no hard counter to them. Which makes Scrin vulnerable to GDI infantry. The Hexapod is kinda useless as with all other Scrin units vs zone trooper/emp grenadier/riffles/marv/firehawk combo. Not only do i trash a Hexapod with this, but everything else too. Which makes it really lame if you ask me
Joined: 9th Feb 2014
Rank: --
Likes 1
26th Jun 2014

I do remember you and some other people phasing gunwalkers and then crush all of the infintry of your opponent, however this was a long time ago, so I don't see anyone oding it anymore. Not to mention, that you do have the stasis support power and corrupters actually kill infintry, so if you use all of that in conjunction, you shouldn't really have too much problems.

Not to mention, economically it takes more eco and loger to produce the combo you mentioned before and it is pretty hard to pull of while your opponent is harassing your harvesters.
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